I came across Drew McCarty in the Church Marketing Lab, and he was looking for some advice for a church plant (Drew’s note: new web site coming soon) that was “radically relevant” and “orthodox in theology.” Sounds tough, huh? Well, the church plant is in England. Sounds even tougher. I sat down with him (via e-mail, across the Atlantic Ocean), for a little Q&A about church marketing from a British perspective. Here’s what Drew had to say:
Tell us a little about your story. How long have you lived in England? What made you move there?
Drew: I was born and raised in a small city in East Tennessee where I also went to University. I grew up in church and came to know and love Jesus from a very young age. About a year into college I felt called to ministry and after graduating enrolled at Reformed Theological Seminary (RTS) in Orlando, Fla.–where I am currently a student. At the time I was looking at seminaries, I wanted to be able to get the practical experience of ministry alongside the cognitive education of the classroom.
So two and a half years ago I began taking distance-education classes from RTS and in the meantime moved to Manchester, England where a family I knew was serving as missionaries. I spent about two years just hanging out, learning the culture, learning the church, and studying for my classes with RTS. Then, less than a year ago the opportunity arose for the church I had been attending to plant a daughter church. The elders of the church wanted to reach the non-Christians of the area, and after doing some survey work discovered that young-professionals were migrating to our town-centre.
I was asked to lead this church plant up since this is the kind of practical education I came over for. Thus in August of 2007 The River Church Plant began … and that’s where we are now.
It sounds like a church marketing nightmare. “Let’s get twentysomethings in non-religious England to come to church.” What is it that’s drawing these young adults?
Drew: It’s difficult to say that there is one thing that brings young adults in to church. Without wanting to sound cliché, I would say the most important thing is a proper understanding of the gospel. Today’s young adults are unusually skeptical and anything sounding fake or hypocritical is not going to fly with them. Young adults know there is deep brokenness in the world and they know pop-culture-Jesus isn’t the answer to the real-life death and destruction of sin.
Cornel West (professor of religion at Princeton) was right when he said, “We’ve taken the blood at the foot of the cross and turned it into Kool-Aid.” Today’s young adults see through this. We have to properly communicate the Gospel as it really is–as not just the ABCs of Christianity but as the A-Z.
Dr. Tim of Redeemer Presbyterian Church, NYC says it like this: “We are not justified by the gospel and then sanctified by obedience, but the gospel is the way we grow (Gal. 3:1-3) and are renewed (Col. 1:6). It is the solution to each problem, the key to each closed door, the power through every barrier (Rom. 1:16-17).”
Another problem the church suffers from–which we must avoid–is anti-intellectualism. At one point in time being a pastor was the highest form of education; this is how America’s highest colleges were formed. Today pastors are seen by non-Christians as disillusioned and often times foolish. And if we’re honest with ourselves–many times they are.
I’m not saying that we’re going to win people to Christ by better articulating our philosophy (“For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing” 1 Cor. 1:18), but we must always be “prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you … with gentleness and respect” (1 Peter 3:15).
If we have these two things–a firm grasp on the gospel and the ability to articulate it intellectually–I believe young adults will be more willing to listen to what we have to say. And when we have these things, we can begin to think, “How do we reach the non-Christian where he is today?” “How do we speak the language of today’s non-Christian?”
You let me know that you’re not a native Brit. From the standpoint of connecting with people, has this been a hindrance?
Drew: It has, as I guess it is for all cross cultural missions. Brits are closed and private people, even with their own. It’s really a difficult concept for your typical American to understand because as Americans we’re typically much more open and friendly. To give you some idea, I have immediate neighbours that I have never spoken to even though I see them out on occasion. Because of this it is hard for me to make friends with Brits, thus gaining their trust and opening the door to Gospel conversation.
I will also say that in the eyes of a Brit an American Christian is way too cliché. Brits think of American Christianity as very shallow and just plain crazy … think modern-day TV preachers. This is definitely not attractive to them!
How translatable were American church concepts? Are there things you saw work here that haven’t there? And vice versa?
Drew: Sure, there are. The UK hasn’t had any sort of reformation in their ecclesiology since the time of Wesley and Whitefield. Several years ago America had the Seeker-Friendly Movement, the UK had little to do with that. Today America is seeing the rise of the Emerging Church Movement. In the UK this movement is a different animal. There are some models of this movement here but they look far different than the American church’s model and they have yet to produce anything gospel-focused.
The most difficult thing is that the vast majority of Brits think of church as an airy building with wooden pews, scary statues, lots of kneeling and lots of singing of ancient hymns to organ music. But even worse–since the UK has a state church–they see the church as a political body seeking power and money by any means possible. And in addition, my take on the UK Church in general is that it’s largely legalistic in their theology. (I think it goes back to the Brits desire for structure and “proper order”.) So a British non-Christian wouldn’t dream of going to church because not only is it a very uncomfortable place where you’re going to get yelled at for not following the rules, it is also the enemy seeking influence over you. The American concept of “church” is completely foreign to your typical non-Christian Brit.
What advice would you give to Americans looking to better market their churches and reach people? How about Brits?
Drew: I hate to sound repetitious, but the best advice I could give is make sure you and your church know and love the gospel. If you’re promising that Jesus will give you a good job if you just believe–or–Jesus will bless you if you only behave–please do us all a favor and just don’t do any marketing! Your legalism or prosperity-driven-gospel is harmful not only to your church, but the Church as a whole.
Besides this, I don’t think I have any claim on how Americans market their church. I will say that I have never heard someone give a testimony in which they say, “One day I asked someone for an after-dinner-mint and they gave me one with a scripture verse on it–it was life-changing.” Likewise, all the Christian toys and memorabilia is simply crap–please don’t embarrass yourself. Know that someone isn’t going to be saved by looking at your advertisement, so don’t pay $500 to put “God loves you” on a billboard.
But seriously, know your target group. You have one whether you know it or not. Know their interests and know what is relevant to them. Don’t think in an “us/them” mentality. Engage them and their culture. When Jesus prays, “Your Kingdom come … ” he is promising that our cities will be transformed–not demolished. We are citizens, not survivalists, in the “new” city within the “old” city. As such we needn’t be afraid of having church in a bar, or talking about Jesus while having a pint. We are seeking the peace and the prosperity of the city and all of its components.
Just for fun, give us one sentence that would make complete sense in the UK but not to our American readers.
Drew: “I’ll give you a little tinkle.” That’s Brit for, “I’ll call you.”
David N
January 11, 2008
As a Brit, who is also involved with some level of marketing at my church, I feel oblidged to input. Drew makes some fair points. We Brits aren’t known for our radical openess; we would much rather have a chat with our friends than with complete strangers. Yet I feel that the UK Church isn’t ready for a heavily evangelical movement. British theology has, as Drew mentions, stayed the same for a while and so British Christians seek to see shift not in what we believe but in how it remains fresh and relevant.
And seriously, even I would never suggest giving someone “a little tinkle”. If you want a really British phrase you would say “Oh, golly!”.
Just my two pence… or would you prefer cents?
Phil
January 12, 2008
Interesting reading an American viewpoint of the UK church scene. I disagree slightly that the UK emergent church scene hasn’t produced anything “gospel focussed”, I’d suggest that there’s a lot of gospel focussed stuff going on, just in a different way. Drew is correct that the UK is a vastly different animal to the US, in fact, we probably have more similarities with Australia or even Europe than the US (even if we’re not openly prepared to admit it).
Interesting thoughts though. Sometimes it’s difficult to see UK from outside when you’re in it all the time.
Steve
January 13, 2008
Hey Josh,
As a Brit living in Australia and serving in a Comm’s position in a large church I have my own observations on the culture and how to reach it down here in Aus…
Again, different to the U.S. but there are also some commonalities
Send me an email if you are interested.
Martin T
January 13, 2008
The examples David and Drew give for something that would make sense to British but not American readers highlight an interesting point which is that there aren’t really any such universally used phrases. What American’s probably don’t appreciate is how greatly accents and manerisms of speech vary around the UK. I’m a Brit too but I’d never say ‘golly’. I wouldn’t say ‘tinkle’ either – although I might say I’d give someone a ‘bell’!
Here a few examples of very localised phrases which most Brits would understand:
(written loosely as pronounced):
Tar Duck (Derbyshire – thankyou dear)
Al si’thee Satdi (East Lancashire/west Yorkshire region – I will see you on Saturday)
Way I (Newcastle – could mean many things, typically a greeting or a strong affirmation)
Give over with yer bother (How my Grandfather (from Manchester) used to chide me as a child when I caused trouble)
Martin
Martin T
January 13, 2008
David,
Not sure what you mean by a “heavily evangelical movement” or why you see it in what Drew wrote or indeed what you’d propose as a better alternative? Also, whilst we need to ‘do’ church in a culturally relevant way, that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t challenge the theological status quo. In fact, I’d venture to say that the poor theology that predominates in this country is precisely what is to blame for its low spiritual state.
Martin
Kennedy Fraser
January 13, 2008
Remember that Britain is not a homogeneous culture. It is made up of a number of countries each with its own traditions and languages. Indeed some have their own separate legal system, education system and national churches. Describing someone from Scotland as English is almost the same as introducing someone from Canada as American. (Although I see the Library of Congress nearly made that mistake:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7184769.stm).
Certainly here in Scotland, there is material produced elsewhere in the United Kingdom which would not ‘fit’ – some of the material from the Churches Advertising Network would not fit on out local radio stations.
Kennedy
Martin T
January 13, 2008
Phil,
Since Drew quotes Tim Keller and, with reference to the specific quote he uses, I wonder if you mean the same thing as him when you say you think that there are “gospel focussed” churches in the UK? I think that many churches would claim to be gospel-focussed but would mean nothing more by it than trying to produce converts. Sadly, for many the gospel is just the ‘milk’ and something else is the ‘meat’ and, all too often, the ‘something else’ turns out to be little more than legalism or philosophical self-help.
Martin
Ted Grigg
January 13, 2008
I was raised as a child in northern France where my father was a missionary in the 50’s and 60’s. I attended French schools and became French. I think we have come a long way since then.
In this experience, I observed one focal point that attracts people, regardless of culture, closer to the way Jesus sees his kingdom on earth. And that is love.
God is love and we are to be like Him.
Approaching others by letting Jesus live through us sounds trite. But I have seen it work many times, even with those who did not initially believe in my God.
This by no means takes away from this excellent post and the knowledge of how to relate to others through their culture. Paul himself converted many by living as a member of every community he came in contact with.
But when all else fails, God’s love comes through our words and actions to make us truly effective.
Drew
January 13, 2008
Phil: Thanks for you comments. I think it may have been unfair of me to say that the emerging church hasn’t produced anything gospel focused. There are definitely some churches which one could consider “emergent” which do have a grasp on the Gospel (take St. Peter’s Barge in Canary Wharf as an example). I am just not aware of any “proper” emerging church (proper at least as an American would think when he thought about emerging church). Of course that is not to say that there are not some – I just don’t know of them. Again, I think it goes back to what we mean when we say “emerging church.” For instance, I don’t really consider what we’re doing at The River “emerging church,” but of course many would and I’m okay with that. I definitely have learned a lot from the movement.
Matt
February 26, 2008
I’m a (Northern) Brit – some very good coments and analysis here from Drew.
Getting the views, insights and contributions from people who have grown up outside our culture is very useful, and I feel the church in general here would benefit from more “missionaries” from other countries.
GrowingChristian
August 4, 2008
I have in the past attended the Redeemer Presbyterian Church, heard Tim Keller’s sermons — and also have been looking at their Center for Faith & Work. Sad to say, Tim Keller is now lite-rally ‘selling his sermons.’ Also, they targeted the Wall Streeters, who have completely ruined our economy. I believe, that to gather so many MBAS, who have had no salt — can be shown to be not true. We are not supposed to build our houses on ‘sinking sand.’
Tom Rawls
April 13, 2009
Interesting interview. I am an Aussie pastoring a growing church in Norwich England – over 60% of the people attending are in the 18 – 15 year old catagory.
What draws them is a passionate, authentic presentation of who God is through Jesus Christ. These Gen Y are searching for the real, the genuine and want to see and expereince the power of God seen in a transformed life.
I am one of main speakers in our church the other three are all in their 20’s (24, 25 and 27). These guys are contemporary and innovative speakers and have helped me tremendously in my own presentation. Even though am now 52 years old I am seen by the majority as “with it” and savey concerning today.
I believe te young people of the UK are wide open to a church with passion, great music, and powerful messages that capture their imagination.
Our church is grwoing – from just under 100 4 years ago to over 800 in attendance over Easter – most of our students were still away on term break as well.
I love this site! I love the prcatical wisdom expressed here concering church marketing – I have learned a lot and continue to learn as e see our city and beyound touched with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Thanks to you all,
Tom Rawls
http://www.tomrawls.com
Tom Rawls
April 13, 2009
Interesting interview. I am an Aussie pastoring a growing church in Norwich England – over 60% of the people attending are in the 18 – 15 year old catagory.
What draws them is a passionate, authentic presentation of who God is through Jesus Christ. These Gen Y are searching for the real, the genuine and want to see and expereince the power of God seen in a transformed life.
I am one of main speakers in our church the other three are all in their 20’s (24, 25 and 27). These guys are contemporary and innovative speakers and have helped me tremendously in my own presentation. Even though am now 52 years old I am seen by the majority as “with it” and savey concerning today.
I believe te young people of the UK are wide open to a church with passion, great music, and powerful messages that capture their imagination.
Our church is grwoing – from just under 100 4 years ago to over 800 in attendance over Easter – most of our students were still away on term break as well.
I love this site! I love the prcatical wisdom expressed here concering church marketing – I have learned a lot and continue to learn as we see our city and beyound touched with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Thanks to you all,
Tom Rawls
http://www.tomrawls.com